The Power of Music
by Mark Wilkerson
What do Trevor Oswalt, professionally known as East Forest, and the famous 88-year-old living Guru Ram Dass (formerly known as Richard Alpert) have in common? Besides collaborating on an album, it turns out more than one would think.
Ram Dass bestowed on Trevor the honor (and this is a very big deal) of the name “Krishna.” Their collaborative album, entitled Ram Dass, is a new-age instrumental created by Krishna, and other invited musicians, with spoken words by Ram Dass. The album is Grammy worthy. In fact, it is up for a Grammy.
East Forest, Krisha, is all a musician, composer, and teacher should be. He is extraordinarily talented in an ordinary sort of way. He is famous in a humble sort of way. He is forceful in an unforced sort of way. He is calm of voice and manner, but a dancing looping perpetual motion machine in front of his electronic keyboards. And he, like his teacher Ram Dass, shares spiritual truths and wisdom in an unassuming invitation. So let’s dive in.
Mark: I want to focus on what you’ve been doing in the last 12 months with a particular focus on your new album with Ram Dass. Tell me about that relationship.
Music is a language that all souls understand. I’m honored that my teaching have been paired with a musician like East Forest, who has crafted an album with so much love
Ram Dass
Krishna: He’s someone who was a teacher for me, through books and talks. I always wanted to meet him, but I didn’t know how. And then my manager and I were having a meeting and he asked me just as like a big picture question, “How do you want your work to be remembered?” I was thinking I wanted it to be remembered the way Ram Dass’ work is remembered. It’s bigger than him and it’s universal, and it’s certainly important to me. I wanted to have that sort of feeling to what I was putting out into the world, and legacy.
I pitched it to his world, his foundation, and it was just good timing. Meeting with him; being in this studio and mixing him and listening to his words over and over and over again, like every day for over a year. It was a very intimate experience.
For me it’s been a big act of service to be able to help transmit his ideas to even more people. Hopefully new ears, young ears. And I think it’s really just beginning. I wanted to create something with this record that was timeless. I didn’t want it to be a record that a few years from now you might listen to it musically and think, “Oh, that was so 2019; it’s just not really relevant.” I wanted it to be a diversity of music and the kind of music that can last many, many decades.
Mark: This record is somewhat unique in that it is spoken words to much; can you describe it for us?
Krishna: Right. It’s the sum of the parts for sure. I liked the music a lot on its own. But it’s obviously better with Ram Dass’ words on there. And I think if it was just Ram Dass’ words, which are great on their own, but the music amplifies them emotionally. So it’s like a film score. It takes what he’s saying, which is already really solid, and amplifies them maybe two or three or even four times.
Mark: Is that a fair definition for you of the power of music?
Krishna: As an amplification for words, well, yes and no. I’ve always leaned more towards music than words. So this is a good combo for me too. It’s essentially working with a lyricist who is a master. In that sense it was like playing into my weaknesses and using my strengths.
What Ram Dass was doing all these years was like amazing, right? It just wasn’t music. So I thought bringing music to that was another modality and compliment to what he’s doing.
Mark: I think it plays to your strengths too because the music allows the words to resonate and repeat even silently through the music. It brings it into your head and…
Krishna: Into your heart. And into your gut and that’s what’s cool about it.
East Forest is tied to both nature and to everyday urban life, giving it the qualities of a sort of ethereal and mystical modern-day fairytale. It’s just blissful.
NPR
Mark: I love that description. But I didn’t let you answer the question about your own description of this work with Ram Dass.
Krishna: It’s quite simply new Ram Dass teachings set to new music, East Forest music. And I wanted it to be something that had many doorways into it. That’s why there’s a different kind of style of music to it. It’s a journey and there wasn’t some monotony where you couldn’t quite last. It’s an interesting landscape musically right now anyway because some people still listen to records like that and some people it’s more about singles and they just listen to something over and over and over again. And so I’m just trying to meet the times and play the game of how you release music these days, but also still strive to create something that has a timeless quality. That is a work in itself.
Mark: So ideally someone would listen to it beginning to end?
Krishna: It’s built that way. But I’m totally open. There’s a million roads to Rome, spiritually. So it’s whatever works. There is an intentionality to its flow. I think Ram Dass is a true master and I wanted to respect that.
I see my life as an unfolding set of opportunities to awaken.
Ram Dass
Mark: I know a little about Ram Dass’ history and LSD and other things he used to try to kind of “tap in.” Can you talk about that?
Krishna: Sure. I asked him about psilocybin, which is magic mushrooms. And on the records there is a song called “Home” where he says that psilocybin started him on his spiritual path. That’s a huge statement. Basically saying like, “I wouldn’t be Ram Dass if I hadn’t taken mushrooms with Allen Ginsburg and Timothy Leary back in the 60s.” And that’s a big deal. He’s always had that legitimacy of being a Harvard professor who sees the intellectual angle. And then he had this Eastern spirituality he brought back. The psychedelics were a tool. It’s beautiful.
For me, it’s much the same in that 20 years ago I had experiences with psilocybin that were thankfully positive and absolutely lit a fuse of a spiritual path that showed me that there’s more to the picture. I couldn’t argue because they were felt experiences. I was looking for wisdom, looking for answers, and that’s what led me down my spiritual path.
Mark: Does that spiritual path guide your music or vice versa?
Krishna: Both, it’s hand in hand. My goal is that there’s no separation between church and state, so to speak. My walking life, my thinking life, my music, my spiritual life. It’s just all life. I just try to keep it all within this lens of awareness. I’m not asleep. And the decisions I’m making about music and business and even just interacting with people and with my partner and with myself and my mind, it’s all the same thing of a certain level of awareness and kindness and love. My goal would be that there’s no separation. I would just want to find peace through all of that.
Mark: We’ve heard a lot, Kristine and I, from artists, about the gift of “being present.” How does being present inform your life?
Krishna: Well it’s like Ram Dass says, “Be here now, there isn’t anything else.” The more you can be here now, the more you’re alive.
The quieter you become, the more you can hear.
Ram Dass
Mark: The words make it sound pretty easy. “Just be here now, be present, come to the party.” But to actually do it I think takes a great deal of effort…
Krishna: I would say it takes no effort. The effort is you thinking it takes effort. You’re doing it right now being saying it, you just reminded yourself. The in and the out is the engine of life. That’s why we’re here, I think. And so I stopped beating myself up for forgetting because if I forget then I can remember. And that’s a practice. The reasons people do yoga or listen to this record or read this magazine: these are all just different ways to sing to the choir, so to speak, to sing each other awake over and over again.
I mean we’re all just animals on this planet trying to be spiritual beings at the same time. It’s a tough gig. I mean we have this ability to be down in the dirty. We share the same qualities with this stone, but then we’re able to have cosmic thoughts. It’s a process versus a destination. I think in the West we often hear about this destination “enlightenment,” like it’s this thing you’re always reaching for. If you get rid of that destination idea or this hierarchy stuff, it’s a process. Meaning you’re in it, you’re out of it, you’re through it, it’s fluid.
The physical universe is always changing. Your consciousness, your moods. It’s what the Buddha taught. Just stop grabbing onto it.
Mark: This is the idea of “witness”?
Krishna: Yes. Ram Dass talks about that throughout the record. You’re sitting in what he calls the “soul land” or the witness, where you’re a bit removed. So instead of being in the thoughts, you’re like, “Oh wait, I can see them. I might still be angry, but at least I can step back and notice I’m angry. And so there’s a part of me that’s not totally identified with that right now.” Not only is it profound philosophically, but it allows you to have this other place from which to make decisions, better.
Full of rich bass, introspective soundscapes, the biophany of nature, and live instrumentation ranging from a wooden flute to a mylodica, East Forest doesn’t just create sound, he creates narrative.
Huffington Post
Mark: We’re located in a high tech studio in one of the most remote locations in the country. Describe where we are and how you came to be here.
Krishna: I assume you do not want to existential answer…Hah. This is a strange little blue dot in the Southern Utah landscape and it is a really interesting group of weirdos. And I say that in the highest sense, there’s really interesting people in this tiny town. I came here because I followed a certain excitement 10 years ago for a retreat, like the one you’re on right now. And I met people here and I met the landscape, and I just kept coming back to visit. Then eventually I got a place here. The setting is remarkable with massive desert rock features, yet massive pine trees and water flowing.
Mark: Thank you, and I agree the setting is remarkable and the people quite, well, interesting.
But getting back to your musical work, what about more spiritual leaders? Do you think you’ll follow that thread for more projects?
Krishna: I’ve been thinking about the Dalai Lama. He’s speaking a lot about action mixed with Tibetan Buddhism. I think it could be really interesting. But we’ll see. If it’s meant to happen, it’ll happen.
Mark: Those reading your words are going to recognize the level of work and thought that goes into your life. What about sharing some of your words of wisdom through your musical work?
Krishna: Well I do sometimes write lyrics, and that’s something I’m thinking of exploring more on the next record just to see if it flows. But I’ve actually been working on…thinking about the right timing for a book. That may be sooner than later.
Mark: Do you enjoy that part of the process, the words part of it?
Krishna: It’s harder. The music to me is more broad and paints with the more metaphorical brush, whereas words are so specific. I think that’s more of a challenge. It’s more work. It’s probably why I don’t put a lot of lyrics in my stuff because I’m like, “Oh, it’s too exact.”
Mark: Is it a concern that by putting words to the music you’re somehow boxing the listener in?
Krishna: Definitely. And also cross-culturally people who don’t speak English. Yeah, it definitely starts to get more specific. For sure.
Mark: Ironically, I have heard from some poets that, “my words alone leave room for interpretation. If you add music, I’m afraid you drive the meaning too narrowly.”
Krishna: I hear their perspective. I definitely think adding music to poetry, making it lyrics to a song would push it emotionally one way or the other. There’s a music inherent to the poetry, just as there are words that may come into one’s mind from instrumental music. That’s why it’s so delicate. Adding another layer to either might be a great enhancement, but maybe not.
Immersive and vivid
Wired
Mark: How do you define a “man of distinction”?
Krishna: “Distinction” is such a loaded word for me. I always think of James Bond or something. So I have to redefine it to even be palatable. I think what would make someone outstanding, particularly in the form of masculinity, would be knowing how to tell the truth. How do you tell the truth to yourself? How do you tell the truth to the world? In partnership? In business? I think that’s a pathway to distinction.
Mark: I know Ram Dass gave you your spiritual name Krishna, and I want to get to that next, but first tell us about your other name, East Forest.
Krishna: Oh, that’s easy. My legal last name is Oswalt. In German, “Oz” plus “Vault” translates to “East Forest.” I picked it up 10 years ago and slapped it on that first record I made because I thought, “Oh, that’s a cool name.” And it stuck.
And then Krishna. It was very important to be named by Ram Dass. We both [gesturing to his partner] got names at the same moment. What’s so cool about that is that I would give myself that name above any other name. And when I learned more about Krishna and her name, Radha, it’s like he saw it. He’s so giving and so loving and he looks at you, and he’s like, “I see the soul. And you might not think you’re Krishna, but you’re Krishna.” And so now every time someone calls me Krishna, it’s a little wake up call to allow me to be bigger and better and tell the truth and be more living.
Mark: How about you, Radha [turning to Krishna’s partner]?
Radha: It was a really powerful moment. I was in the room with them and he gave him the name Krishna. I knew who Krishna was. He didn’t and he actually was doubtful, like “Just Krishna?” And Ram Dass said, “Yes, just Krishna.” Then he looked at me and he said, “And you, you are Radha.” And then he slapped his thigh, and he started laughing.
And I knew that that meant when he said that. Because Krishna and Radha are divine consorts, they’re beloveds, they’re partners. It was like a spiritual marriage in that moment when he said, “You’re a Krishna and you’re Radha.” It was huge. It is huge.
Krishna: It was great. And then the next day, you know after Radha clues me in to the meanings, we were in Maui and Krishna and Radha were everywhere. We went in the shops and the stores, there would be a statue of Krishna and Radha chanting, or tapestries of Krishna and Radha, or pictures of Krishna and Radha. They were all over the place. Just like the universe throwing these signals, these spiritual symbols, back.
Mark: So you, as a man of distinction like Ram Dass, are sharing universal truths as you know them with the world.
Krishna: This is my hope.